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Author Topic: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit  (Read 1410 times)

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Online Barman

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2018, 08:36:30 AM »
. .It comes down to, "how did we manage to do xxxxxxx before the EU" and "and how do non-EU countries manage to do xxxxxxxx?" . .
How did we ever manage to have airlines fly third country routes before the EU?

We didn't

Whut?  eeek:

Prior to the EU we couldn't fly to anywhere but the UK...?
Not what I said

You couldn't embark and disembark on a UK airline between two airports in non UK countries (the Empire and later Commonwealth may be exception)  And in much of the world the same still applies.

So it isn't a Brexit issue then...?

And if ROW copes it probably almost certainly isn't an issue at all...
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Offline Steve

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2018, 09:38:05 AM »
. .It comes down to, "how did we manage to do xxxxxxx before the EU" and "and how do non-EU countries manage to do xxxxxxxx?" . .
How did we ever manage to have airlines fly third country routes before the EU?

We didn't

Whut?  eeek:

Prior to the EU we couldn't fly to anywhere but the UK...?
Not what I said

You couldn't embark and disembark on a UK airline between two airports in non UK countries (the Empire and later Commonwealth may be exception)  And in much of the world the same still applies.

So it isn't a Brexit issue then...?

And if ROW copes it probably almost certainly isn't an issue at all...
Well it is a Brexit issue as it removes all UK airports and UK flagged carriers from those 6th and 7th air freedoms that go beyond the Chicago treaty

The ROW copes either because they have large internal markets (eg USA), free trade blocs (eg NAFTA) or in many cases whopping high prices and dodgy planes

Those that want no deal ought to be careful what they wish for
Well, whatever nevermind

Online Barman

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2018, 10:24:50 AM »
. .It comes down to, "how did we manage to do xxxxxxx before the EU" and "and how do non-EU countries manage to do xxxxxxxx?" . .
How did we ever manage to have airlines fly third country routes before the EU?

We didn't

Whut?  eeek:

Prior to the EU we couldn't fly to anywhere but the UK...?
Not what I said

You couldn't embark and disembark on a UK airline between two airports in non UK countries (the Empire and later Commonwealth may be exception)  And in much of the world the same still applies.

So it isn't a Brexit issue then...?

And if ROW copes it probably almost certainly isn't an issue at all...
Well it is a Brexit issue as it removes all UK airports and UK flagged carriers from those 6th and 7th air freedoms that go beyond the Chicago treaty

The ROW copes either because they have large internal markets (eg USA), free trade blocs (eg NAFTA) or in many cases whopping high prices and dodgy planes

Those that want no deal ought to be careful what they wish for

Well, there is nothing like a sweeping generalisation to secure your argument is there…?

In December I sat on the Interwebz here and bought an airline ticket with €uros from my Cyprus bank account.

In April I flew Larnaca >>> Dubai >>> Sydney >>> Auckland >>> Dubai >>> Larnaca.

You’ll note that several of those countries are outside the EU yet I suffered not ‘whopping high prices nor dodgy planes’…

And there are what, 100,000 flights per day, 36 million per year that arrive safely between the 195 countries of the world?

The problem is that remainers always assume that what the EU does is ‘best practice’. In reality, most of what the EU does is protectionism for the 28 27 which inevitably means higher prices and less choice for consumers.

What is the reason that any airline from any country (that meets relevant safety standards) shouldn't be allowed to operate to/from any other airport inside or outside the EU?
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Offline Steve

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2018, 12:16:37 PM »
So as sweeping generalisations go you are saying Dubai's 'Open Skies' policy (or Singapore's) holds sway over all European, USA and Asian airports for all airlines that don't even fly to Dubai does it?

 noooo:

Well, whatever nevermind

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2018, 12:43:26 PM »
So as sweeping generalisations go you are saying Dubai's 'Open Skies' policy (or Singapore's) holds sway over all European, USA and Asian airports for all airlines that don't even fly to Dubai does it?

 noooo:

What does that even mean...? Shrugs:

I'm merely pointing out that without the EU literally millions of flights manage to take off and land to and from thousands of destinations every year.
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Offline Steve

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2018, 01:34:02 PM »
So as sweeping generalisations go you are saying Dubai's 'Open Skies' policy (or Singapore's) holds sway over all European, USA and Asian airports for all airlines that don't even fly to Dubai does it?

 noooo:

What does that even mean...? Shrugs:

I'm merely pointing out that without the EU literally millions of flights manage to take off and land to and from thousands of destinations every year.
And millions of those are by bilateral not multilateral agreements.  Dubai and Singapore are very much not the norm

I'm merely pointing out that without a deal that goes beyond the Chicago treaty, O'Leary is right that he has a problem operating his most profitable routes after 2020 and he won't be alone in those problems.  And if the ultraLeavers have their 'flounce now' way that problem becomes March 30th 2019

Well, whatever nevermind

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2018, 02:03:23 PM »
So as sweeping generalisations go you are saying Dubai's 'Open Skies' policy (or Singapore's) holds sway over all European, USA and Asian airports for all airlines that don't even fly to Dubai does it?

 noooo:

What does that even mean...? Shrugs:

I'm merely pointing out that without the EU literally millions of flights manage to take off and land to and from thousands of destinations every year.
And millions of those are by bilateral not multilateral agreements.  Dubai and Singapore are very much not the norm

I'm merely pointing out that without a deal that goes beyond the Chicago treaty, O'Leary is right that he has a problem operating his most profitable routes after 2020 and he won't be alone in those problems.  And if the ultraLeavers have their 'flounce now' way that problem becomes March 30th 2019

And I'm merely pointing out that millions of flights every year manage without the involvement of the EU.

And it is nothing to do with 'UltraLeavers' or 'flouncing'. We voted to leave and triggered Article 50 as required by EU rules.

If the EU decides to 'punish' the UK (pour encourager les autres) by not allowing flights on March 30th that were completely legal on the 29th then she (as Grumpmeister pointed out earlier in this thread) will do herself as much damage as she does the UK. And give yet another reason for leaving in the first place.

They've had literally years to sort this out. That they have not done so is not a reflection on 'UltraLeavers' or any flouncing on the part of the UK.
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Offline Steve

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2018, 02:25:06 PM »
Yes they should have sorted it out long ago but Boris pissed off the EU with his boorish cake and eat it and go whistle statements, May got herself a minority government stuck with an Irish problem and now we have ultraLeavers saying we should just walk away with no agreement now and the Rees Moggers saying just leave with no agreement on March 19th

Neither is a constructive way forward is it.   I still believe a deal will be done but I'm not going to pretend there are no airline consequences of one not happening


Well, whatever nevermind

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2018, 02:40:16 PM »
Yes they should have sorted it out long ago but Boris pissed off the EU with his boorish cake and eat it and go whistle statements, May got herself a minority government stuck with an Irish problem and now we have ultraLeavers saying we should just walk away with no agreement now and the Rees Moggers saying just leave with no agreement on March 19th

Neither is a constructive way forward is it.   I still believe a deal will be done but I'm not going to pretend there are no airline consequences of one not happening

Blaming everything on Boris, May and Mogg isn't very constructive either. ::)

'Tis about time that remainers looked towards their beloved EU and their attitude towards Brexit for the cause of some of these apparently insoluble problems... 
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Offline Steve

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2018, 05:40:32 PM »
“beloved EU”

happy001
Well, whatever nevermind

Offline Uncle Mort

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2018, 05:46:19 PM »
Notice you don't deny that the EU is negotiating in bad faith.

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2018, 05:57:16 PM »
Notice you don't deny that the EU is negotiating in bad faith.

Quite.

Thank you Uncle.
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Offline Steve

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2018, 06:41:08 PM »
Notice you don't deny that the EU is negotiating in bad faith.
Are they?

Bit like negotiating with a car dealer, I don't expect them to be negotiating in my interest do I but do I think they're bad people for that?  No

I could criticise them for not being very imaginative bit where's the bad faith?

Well, whatever nevermind

Offline Uncle Mort

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2018, 07:26:57 PM »
They've no interest in a compromise. That's bad faith. Even a car dealer would meet you halfway.

Offline Steve

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Re: From the Fantastic Headlines thread - No Fly After Brexit
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2018, 08:10:24 PM »
They've no interest in a compromise. That's bad faith. Even a car dealer would meet you halfway.
I haven't seen them offered a workable one yet.  May seems to have everything but go and talk to the Irish who are the ones she needs to compromise.

I believe the EU made it clear they'd accept us having a Swiss position, the one that veteran leaver Danial Hannan said pre referendum was what we should aim for.  But Davis et al said they wanted no part of that.

Noticed how quiet Hannan has been lately?

Well, whatever nevermind