Jeremy Corbyn for Labour leader?

[Barman]

The UK electorate certainly has its faults.  As I've often said we get the politicians we deserve and so so many people vote on the basis of either "what's in it for me now" or "they can't be as bad as what we have now"

But the May election went against that, when it came to the polling booths many people voted for what they saw as credible.

As an ardent centrist/floating voter I just don't get this allegation that they are all the same.  OK so the days of one side posturing to ditch the NHS and the other to nationalise everything have gone - surely that's good. 

The last election was fought on two areas.  Welfare and Financial credibility.  And while the latter may seem dull it is very important to people whether they have a job and in the end the most credible party won even with a very vindictive line on welfare.

If you really think they were all the same see here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/manifesto-guide

Corbynism threatens to overturn this.  He is a fundamentally dishonest politician with his promises to adopt a whole raft of socialist ideals and still tell people they would be better off.  In power he would take us right back to 1978 misery.  Worse he is manifestly an ineffective politician, with him at the despatch box the Tories can abandon their more moderate elements and become very vindictive.

You should know that the party manifestos have no meaning whatsoever - and no basis in law.

The question is, is there any noticeable difference between the policies of the current Tory government and the last Labour one...?

[Steve]

Well you're plain wrong.  Manifestoes are a part of the UK constitution (see Salisbury convention)

And there are very few examples of where a government has reneged on its manifesto.  There was one last month but I'm struggling to recall another one of any significance

[Barman]

Well you're plain wrong.  Manifestoes are a part of the UK constitution (see Salisbury convention)

And there are very few examples of where a government has reneged on its manifesto.  There was one last month but I'm struggling to recall another one of any significance

The Salisbury Convention has absolutely nothing to do with parties reneging on promises in their election manifesto...

[Barman]

[Steve]

Well you're plain wrong.  Manifestoes are a part of the UK constitution (see Salisbury convention)

And there are very few examples of where a government has reneged on its manifesto.  There was one last month but I'm struggling to recall another one of any significance

The Salisbury Convention has absolutely nothing to do with parties reneging on promises in their election manifesto...

quite but my mentioning it had everything to do with this:

You should know that the party manifestos have no meaning whatsoever  . .

[Barman]

Well you're plain wrong.  Manifestoes are a part of the UK constitution (see Salisbury convention)

And there are very few examples of where a government has reneged on its manifesto.  There was one last month but I'm struggling to recall another one of any significance

The Salisbury Convention has absolutely nothing to do with parties reneging on promises in their election manifesto...

quite but my mentioning it had everything to do with this:

You should know that the party manifestos have no meaning whatsoever  . .

I must have missed an incredibly subtle point....

My bad i'm sure.... but I can't

[Barman]

Well you're plain wrong.  Manifestoes are a part of the UK constitution (see Salisbury convention)

And there are very few examples of where a government has reneged on its manifesto.  There was one last month but I'm struggling to recall another one of any significance

The Salisbury Convention has absolutely nothing to do with parties reneging on promises in their election manifesto...

quite but my mentioning it had everything to do with this:

You should know that the party manifestos have no meaning whatsoever  . .

I must have missed an incredibly subtle point....

My bad I'm sure.... but I can't quite see where I am 'plain wrong'...?

[Steve]

when you said "manifestoes had no meaning whatsoever".   

It's a common belief or should I say misbelief?  I see so many people that say they will vote for party X and then admit they haven't read a word of their manifesto or election literature.   As I said, we increasingly get the politicians our increasingly shallow voters deserve.  I believe the two behaviours are linked.

I really do recommend people to scan read manifestoes, it's so easy with pdf downloads and Cntrl F to look for key points of interest but even if not, the major media do dissect them very well as per the Beeb link I gave.

So to the point at hand, Corbyn hasn't put out a manifesto per se but his campaign web site is  imho

http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/  (you need to drill down through it)

Votes at 16, massive giveaways, cripple industry, an invite to bring back Rackmanism, more and more windymills, people to give up cars for nationalised public transport, huge extra expenses for employers and yet we're supposed to believe unemployment won't soar etc etc. 

The man trades on a dishonest projection of supposed honesty.

[Barman]

when you said "manifestoes had no meaning whatsoever".   

It's a common belief or should I say misbelief?  I see so many people that say they will vote for party X and then admit they haven't read a word of their manifesto or election literature.   As I said, we increasingly get the politicians our increasingly shallow voters deserve.  I believe the two behaviours are linked.

I really do recommend people to scan read manifestoes, it's so easy with pdf downloads and Cntrl F to look for key points of interest but even if not, the major media do dissect them very well as per the Beeb link I gave.

So to the point at hand, Corbyn hasn't put out a manifesto per se but his campaign web site is  imho

http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/  (you need to drill down through it)

Votes at 16, massive giveaways, cripple industry, an invite to bring back Rackmanism, more and more windymills, people to give up cars for nationalised public transport, huge extra expenses for employers and yet we're supposed to believe unemployment won't soar etc etc. 

The man trades on a dishonest projection of supposed honesty.

So there you have it: political promises of the kind each party makes in its manifesto are not legally enforceable.

[Nick]

He's got my vote 

[Barman]

He's got my vote 

 

[Steve]

So there you have it: political promises of the kind each party makes in its manifesto are not legally enforceable.

true but as the body of that article shows it was a seriously flawed case as the judges said no promise was actually broken. 

It's very hard to hold a government to account for not 100% doing what it promised in a manifesto, there are so many issues with back bench rebellions and new facts that arise to expect perfection.

But when you look across the years they do made very serious efforts to implement their manifestoes and when you drill down through many alleged broken manifesto promises you nigh on every time find it was never in the manifesto or that party did not become the government.

So when this government reneged in weeks on its explicit manifesto promise to cap the cost to the aged for their care, that was a bit of a shock  .   I don't think they've heard the last of that but we'll see.


Anyway if Corbyn ever becomes PM or his inadequacy hands it to a nasty Tory PM then I for one will blame the most accessible scapegoats.   

[Barman]

So there you have it: political promises of the kind each party makes in its manifesto are not legally enforceable.

true but as the body of that article shows it was a seriously flawed case as the judges said no promise was actually broken. 

It's very hard to hold a government to account for not 100% doing what it promised in a manifesto, there are so many issues with back bench rebellions and new facts that arise to expect perfection.

But when you look across the years they do made very serious efforts to implement their manifestoes and when you drill down through many alleged broken manifesto promises you nigh on every time find it was never in the manifesto or that party did not become the government.

So when this government reneged in weeks on its explicit manifesto promise to cap the cost to the aged for their care, that was a bit of a shock  .   I don't think they've heard the last of that but we'll see.


Anyway if Corbyn ever becomes PM or his inadequacy hands it to a nasty Tory PM then I for one will blame the most accessible scapegoats.   

So, what you are saying is....

Well you're plain wrong.  Manifestoes are a part of the UK constitution (see Salisbury convention)

But also....

It's very hard to hold a government to account for not 100% doing what it promised in a manifesto, there are so many issues with back bench rebellions and new facts that arise to expect perfection.

Okay....

[Steve]

So lets see if I've got this right?

you say something is 0% with that "no meaning whatsoever" and when I challenge that seems I'm supposed to be in the wrong because it's not 100%.  Is that what you're saying?

[Barman]

So lets see if I've got this right?

you say something is 0% with that "no meaning whatsoever" and when I challenge that seems I'm supposed to be in the wrong because it's not 100%.  Is that what you're saying?

Um.... I'm not sure what you are saying this time to be honest....

But yes, for the sake of the argument, lets just say that I was saying something was 0% and I DID accuse you of saying the very same something was not quite 100%... we'll call it 99% for the sake of this argument.... 

Where does that leave us...?