Hostile Skies

[Barman]

This is another ?Falklands? book jumping on the 25th anniversary bandwagon ? I picked it up at the airport and it is a fairly interesting read.

Essentially, it is written by David Morgan who was an RAF Harrier pilot who had been seconded to the Royal Navy when the campaign kicked-off. He was eventually ?posted? into 800 squadron on Hermes and the book is the story of his war campaign. He was credited with the shooting down of numerous aircraft and awarded the DSC.

His ?poetry? and letters home to his wife and mistress were an unnecessary inclusion IMHO but a worthwhile read.

Interestingly though I?d originally read ?Sharkey? Ward?s book Sea Harrier over the Falklands? when it came out in 1992.

Ward commanded 801 Naval Air Squadron on Invincible during the campaign and was senior Harrier advisor to the command. He too was awarded the DSC.

So I?ve just re-read Ward?s book to compare the two.

Individually they are good books ? together they provide the most fascinating insight to the air campaign as well as the inter-ship and inter-service rivalry that could easily have lost the campaign and undoubtedly cost many unnecessary lives lost.

Ward pulls no punches as he describes the incompetence of those in charge who clearly had no idea of air warfare or indeed even an understanding of the threat that confronted the surface fleet.

Interesting fact from the book ? the well publicised Vulcan raids on Stanley airport by the RAF managed to get a single bomb on the edge of the runway (repaired in 24 hours) at a cost of approximately 400,000 gallons of aviation fuel ? the same fuel would have supported 785 bombing sorties from the carriers and allowed for the delivery of 2,357 bombs more accurately (23 of the bombs dropped by the Vulcan raids failed to explode because the crew had failed to arm them).

Read the two books and enjoy.

Amazon Link Sea Harrier over the Falklands
Amazon Link Hostile Skies

The two books are well worth a tenner.
 

[Snoopy]

The whole point of the Vulcan raid was to show that we could do it if we wished. In that endeavour it succeeded beyond the planners wildest dreams and convinced the Argentinian conscripts that they had no chance. Without the Vulcan raid the army would have found a much more determined opposition than they encountered. The moral boosting effect on the Falkland Islanders was also worth the effort. The problem with the maths of how many hours Harriers could have flown with the fuel used by the Vulcan falls on several counts not least being the availability of Harriers in the right place at the time.  Both books are worth a read but only as personal memoirs of the authors. The bigger picture they were not privy to and have subsequently failed to take into account what they could have learned from other's memoirs. In particular Margaret Thatcher, who made the decisions, has written at length on why she gave the orders she did and they would benefit from reading the Argies point of view as well.
So exciting stuff alright and undoubted heros both but about an accurate picture of the whole as Douglas Bader's accounts of WWII. Thrilling but very one sided.

[Barman]

I can understand the undoubted psychological and PR value of the first Vulcan raid. Having the thing turn up out of the blue (okay it was night ? out of the black) must have been a real shock.

However, given the dismal results on the ground I can?t see the justification for continuing at such a vast cost in terms of fuel and risk to the pilots of the Vulcan and Victor tankers. The Harrier pilots also had to provide security for the thing when it was in the delivery phase of the operation each time.

Quite frankly it would have been more beneficial for the Harrier that was providing air cover for the Vulcan to precision-deliver its three one-thousand pound bombs on Stanley than loiter around waiting for it.

[Snoopy]

I can understand the undoubted psychological and PR value of the first Vulcan raid. Having the thing turn up out of the blue (okay it was night ? out of the black) must have been a real shock.

However, given the dismal results on the ground I can?t see the justification for continuing at such a vast cost in terms of fuel and risk to the pilots of the Vulcan and Victor tankers. The Harrier pilots also had to provide security for the thing when it was in the delivery phase of the operation each time.

Quite frankly it would have been more beneficial for the Harrier that was providing air cover for the Vulcan to precision-deliver its three one-thousand pound bombs on Stanley than loiter around waiting for it.

Yes I see what you and the authors are saying but they were Fighter Command & Fleet Air Arm and the Vulcans were Bomber Command. Each cobbler to his last. The Argies had nothing like them and just couldn't figure the how and why of the  bloody huge bat looming out of the night sky. The other point is/was that the Vulcan was the only thing we had at that time that could drop a nuclear bomb (note Bomb not missile) and that is where the fear factor came in.
They knew we had the bombs and that they did not ~ what they did not know was that Maggie would not use them

[Barman]

You see ? that?s the interesting thing ? we did have a nuclear deterrent apart from the Vulcan ? this bloody Trident (nee Polaris) system that ?we? have just decided to upgrade. It doesn?t really matter if it is a bomb or missile that carries the warhead that vaporises you and everything you know at the end of the day. In Sharkey Ward?s book he writes: -

It would have taken much more than a lone Vulcan raid to upset Buenos Aires, and it was being rumoured around the fleet that if things went badly for us then the city would indeed be attacked. Maggie would send a Polaris missile without a warhead ? and if the Argentines didn?t toe the line after that, she would send one with a warhead.

I wonder if Polaris really was re-targeted for Buenos Aires and if she would have had the balls to use it in the event of a looming defeat for the task force? If the answer is ?no? one wonders what the point is of having and continuing with such an expensive system?

Bottom line it is would have been extremely difficult logistically to attack Argentina with nuclear weapons carried in a Vulcan (it would obviously have defeated the object if we?d dropped one on Stanley). Not only would you need 10 or 12 Victor tankers to get the thing there and back (from Ascension) but dozens of extra tankers and fighters to provide cover for it while it was over the target. What would the point be if you had a nuclear submarine loaded with Polaris missiles sitting off the coast?

[Snoopy]

I know that, You know that, Maggie knew that but these sorry b@st@rds knew diddly-squat.

[Grumpmeister]

One of the best Falklands war books I've read recently would have to be Vulcan 607. I'd always known that the logistics of making that initial vulcan strike were extensive but I'd never have realised just how much had been involved.

[Barman]

One of the best Falklands war books I've read recently would have to be Vulcan 607. I'd always known that the logistics of making that initial vulcan strike were extensive but I'd never have realised just how much had been involved.

Indeed, as I stated above: -

Interesting fact from the book ? the well publicised Vulcan raids on Stanley airport by the RAF managed to get a single bomb on the edge of the runway (repaired in 24 hours) at a cost of approximately 400,000 gallons of aviation fuel ? the same fuel would have supported 785 bombing sorties from the carriers and allowed for the delivery of 2,357 bombs more accurately (23 of the bombs dropped by the Vulcan raids failed to explode because the crew had failed to arm them).

Interesting also that the RAF got most of the praise (and gongs) after the war ? their PR machine really was working overtime ? while the Fleet Air Arm in their Harriers really were the enabling air power for the invasion.

[Grumpmeister]

True, but I think the Vulcan attack was as much a show of 'if we can strike from this far away you better watch the skies about Buenos Aries' as anything else. Plus if memory serves the vulcan was  primarily a nuclear bomber which would send a message in itself.

[Barman]

I have a feeling of d?j? vu? 

You see ? that?s the interesting thing ? we did have a nuclear deterrent apart from the Vulcan ? this bloody Trident (nee Polaris) system that ?we? have just decided to upgrade. It doesn?t really matter if it is a bomb or missile that carries the warhead that vaporises you and everything you know at the end of the day. In Sharkey Ward?s book he writes: -

It would have taken much more than a lone Vulcan raid to upset Buenos Aires, and it was being rumoured around the fleet that if things went badly for us then the city would indeed be attacked. Maggie would send a Polaris missile without a warhead ? and if the Argentines didn?t toe the line after that, she would send one with a warhead.

I wonder if Polaris really was re-targeted for Buenos Aires and if she would have had the balls to use it in the event of a looming defeat for the task force? If the answer is ?no? one wonders what the point is of having and continuing with such an expensive system?

Bottom line is it would have been extremely difficult logistically to attack Argentina with nuclear weapons carried in a Vulcan (it would obviously have defeated the object if we?d dropped one on Stanley). Not only would you need 10 or 12 Victor tankers to get the thing there and back (from Ascension) but dozens of extra tankers and fighters to provide cover for it while it was over the target. What would the point be if you had a nuclear submarine loaded with Polaris missiles sitting off the coast?

[Grumpmeister]

Visuals. You could park half a dozen nuclear submarines off the coast but you wouldnt be able to tell if they were there or not. A vulcan strike however is pretty hard to miss. Plus I suspect even with the fuel used if the even of a worse case scenario the cost of the vulcan strike would have been far less than the cost of replacing a trident/polaris sub.

[Barman]

Visuals. You could park half a dozen nuclear submarines off the coast but you wouldnt be able to tell if they were there or not. A vulcan strike however is pretty hard to miss. Plus I suspect even with the fuel used if the even of a worse case scenario the cost of the vulcan strike would have been far less than the cost of replacing a trident/polaris sub.

And therein lays the problem?

It would have been impossible to fly a Vulcan to Buenos Aires without air cover ? the Argentineans would have simply shot it down. The RAF couldn?t possibly provide air cover from Ascension so the only alternative would have been to provide cover from Hermes and Invincible.

For the Sea Harriers to have provided air cover the two carriers would have to have steamed within Super Etendard range of Argentina and almost certainly been sunk by Exocet missiles.

[Grumpmeister]

Very true, but the threat of such an attack would have been enough to divert the necessary fighter and air defence units from the invasion force to defending the homeland.

Bear in mind the argentine political situation at the time. The invasion of the falklands was as much an attempt by galtieri to keep power as anything else and was ordered under the mistaken belief that the Britain wouldnt do anything to stop them as they were on the other side of the world. Suddenly being faced with the spectre of a possible nuclear strike would certainly cause panic even if it was kept out of their media.

[Snoopy]

That's what I have been trying to tell him GM. Winning wars is 95% psychological. We threw a socking great big bomber at them from the UK. At the time they had no idea how we had done that .... for all their soldiers knew Superman, Captain America and Wonderwoman were all on our side too. One minute there they are sitting on their captured rock and the next JEEEEZUUUUSSSSS What the F*** was that???????????. That didn't come from no carrier out at sea somewhere ~ that came from the UK and that's a NUCLEAR BOMBER!!!!!!!
Rational thought does not come into circumstances like that.

[Nick]

One of the best Falklands war books I've read recently would have to be Vulcan 607. I'd always known that the logistics of making that initial vulcan strike were extensive but I'd never have realised just how much had been involved.

On a recollectoin of your recommendation I bought this and am reading it. Bit Boy's Own but interesting.

If Snoopy gets here tomorrow I have told him he can borrow it