Author Topic: Corona Bingo...  (Read 9873 times)

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Offline Grumpmeister

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #765 on: May 23, 2020, 07:33:43 PM »
A properly tested vaccine isn't going to be anywhere near as effective as people are claiming because the virus has already mutated and there are now multiple separate strains going around. It's the same reason why there isn't one for the common cold.  noooo:
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Offline The Moan Ranger

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #766 on: May 23, 2020, 07:55:33 PM »
A properly tested vaccine isn't going to be anywhere near as effective as people are claiming because the virus has already mutated and there are now multiple separate strains going around. It's the same reason why there isn't one for the common cold.  noooo:

Exactamundo. I was born in 1968. Estimated 80,000 extra people died from the Hong Kong flu then, when lardiness and diabetes wasn't a thing. You shouldn't stop the world due to the poor lifestyles of some.

Offline Steve

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #767 on: May 23, 2020, 08:27:03 PM »
A properly tested vaccine isn't going to be anywhere near as effective as people are claiming because the virus has already mutated and there are now multiple separate strains going around. It's the same reason why there isn't one for the common cold.  noooo:

Exactamundo. I was born in 1968. Estimated 80,000 extra people died from the Hong Kong flu then, when lardiness and diabetes wasn't a thing. You shouldn't stop the world due to the poor lifestyles of some.
On March 23rd when lockdown started, 74 people died of it and the 7 day averaged death rate was climbing by 53.46% a day.  Had that continued the UK would have been dead by 3 weeks ago.  There's no evidence that only old and fat lardies die, more the opposite.  Like it or not a real disaster was avoided.  An avoidable disaster yes but by March 23rd it was too late to undo Boris's months of bunglings.  Blame him

The source data is here https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/



Well, whatever nevermind

Offline The Moan Ranger

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #768 on: May 23, 2020, 08:56:16 PM »
A properly tested vaccine isn't going to be anywhere near as effective as people are claiming because the virus has already mutated and there are now multiple separate strains going around. It's the same reason why there isn't one for the common cold.  noooo:

Exactamundo. I was born in 1968. Estimated 80,000 extra people died from the Hong Kong flu then, when lardiness and diabetes wasn't a thing. You shouldn't stop the world due to the poor lifestyles of some.
On March 23rd when lockdown started, 74 people died of it and the 7 day averaged death rate was climbing by 53.46% a day.  Had that continued the UK would have been dead by 3 weeks ago.  There's no evidence that only old and fat lardies die, more the opposite.  Like it or not a real disaster was avoided.  An avoidable disaster yes but by March 23rd it was too late to undo Boris's months of bunglings.  Blame him

The source data is here https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

And all of Sweden would be dead by now. Which hasn't happened. PIA8303 crashed due to bad decisions, the UK economy may well follow suit and better decisions would have resulted in better outcomes. I don't want anyone to die from this virus, it will continue though. I particularly don't want more people to die of the over-reaction which is ruining basic societal norms. Many things kill many more people every day, yet they don't cower to them. It's time we, as a society, grew a pair.

Can you honestly imagine a better outcome if Starmer or Ed Davey were in charge? They would have done the same thing..."science led response". Absolved from all responsibility. The biggest problem is the scientists, they can't agree amongst themselves. And not one would have piped up that smokers are 82% less likely to end up in hospital as it doesn't fit the ongoing narrative, ignoring the other issues that cost the NHS (sorry, we tax-payers) more.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 09:32:15 PM by The Moan Ranger »

Offline Grumpmeister

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #769 on: May 23, 2020, 09:47:29 PM »
The problem connects with something I've been saying for years. Cabinet ministers should be people with relevant qualifications and experience and not given out as rewards to MP's who have toed the party line. At least then they would have a more rounded understanding of their relevant portfolio and in this case would have been far more likely to be able to understand and question the predictive model back at the start.
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Offline Barman

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #770 on: May 24, 2020, 04:08:15 AM »
A properly tested vaccine isn't going to be anywhere near as effective as people are claiming because the virus has already mutated and there are now multiple separate strains going around. It's the same reason why there isn't one for the common cold.  noooo:

Exactamundo. I was born in 1968. Estimated 80,000 extra people died from the Hong Kong flu then, when lardiness and diabetes wasn't a thing. You shouldn't stop the world due to the poor lifestyles of some.
On March 23rd when lockdown started, 74 people died of it and the 7 day averaged death rate was climbing by 53.46% a day.  Had that continued the UK would have been dead by 3 weeks ago.  There's no evidence that only old and fat lardies die, more the opposite.  Like it or not a real disaster was avoided.  An avoidable disaster yes but by March 23rd it was too late to undo Boris's months of bunglings.  Blame him

The source data is here https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

And all of Sweden would be dead by now. Which hasn't happened. PIA8303 crashed due to bad decisions, the UK economy may well follow suit and better decisions would have resulted in better outcomes. I don't want anyone to die from this virus, it will continue though. I particularly don't want more people to die of the over-reaction which is ruining basic societal norms. Many things kill many more people every day, yet they don't cower to them. It's time we, as a society, grew a pair.

Can you honestly imagine a better outcome if Starmer or Ed Davey were in charge? They would have done the same thing..."science led response". Absolved from all responsibility. The biggest problem is the scientists, they can't agree amongst themselves. And not one would have piped up that smokers are 82% less likely to end up in hospital as it doesn't fit the ongoing narrative, ignoring the other issues that cost the NHS (sorry, we tax-payers) more.

 happ096
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Offline Barman

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #771 on: May 24, 2020, 04:09:02 AM »
The problem connects with something I've been saying for years. Cabinet ministers should be people with relevant qualifications and experience and not given out as rewards to MP's who have toed the party line. At least then they would have a more rounded understanding of their relevant portfolio and in this case would have been far more likely to be able to understand and question the predictive model back at the start.

A good point well made - we are governed by career politicians with PPEs...  noooo:
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Offline Grumpmeister

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #772 on: May 24, 2020, 05:38:01 AM »
So Andrew Cuomo is now trying to blame Trump for a state directive he signed into action forcing nursing homes to accept covid patients, an action that is arguably responsible for over 5000 deaths from the virus. Now before Steve declares that I may as well start wearing a MAGA hat I've always considered myself a centrist libertarian and an issue voter rather than following political tribes. My problem here is that it's clear to me that in this case Cuomo is being a duplicitous lying coward and is trying to push all the blame on to Trump instead of taking responsibility for his own actions. This is even more reprehensible as this is still an election year and despite his claim to the contrary he has just politicised the entire thing.

Assuming the whole 'I was just following orders' argument had any merit New York is the only place where there have been over 5000 deaths in nursing homes attributed to covid so even if the CDC had been able to enact some kind of edict forcing states to make them accept covid infected patients then we would have seen a sharp increase across the entire country. In fact the CDC did issue guidelines on using alternative facilities in order to free up hospital beds and I've read both the guidelines and all three revisions of the ACS toolkit and they never mention using nursing homes in that manner, the only example they gave was the use of hotels. They did however say this about nursing homes:

Quote
Given their congregate nature and resident population served (e.g., older adults often with underlying chronic medical conditions), nursing home populations are at high risk of being affected by respiratory pathogens like COVID-19 and other pathogens, including multidrug-resistant organisms (e.g., Carbapenemase-producing organisms, Candida auris ).  As demonstrated by the COVID-19 pandemic, a strong infection prevention and control (IPC) program is critical to protect both residents and healthcare personnel (HCP).

Facilities should assign at least one individual with training in IPC to provide on-site management of their COVID-19 prevention and response activities because of the breadth of activities for which an IPC program is responsible, including developing IPC policies and procedures, performing infection surveillance, providing competency-based training of HCP, and auditing adherence to recommended IPC practices.

The section on nursing homes and long term care facilities lists the standard infection control procedure guidelines that you would expect to see and that includes having new patients/residents where their covid status is unknown which you can read below:

Quote
Create a Plan for Managing New Admissions and Readmissions Whose COVID-19 Status is Unknown.

Depending on the prevalence of COVID-19 in the community, this might include placing the resident in a single-person room or in a separate observation area so the resident can be monitored for evidence of COVID-19. HCP should wear an N95 or higher-level respirator (or facemask if a respirator is not available), eye protection (i.e., goggles or a disposable face shield that covers the front and sides of the face), gloves, and gown when caring for these residents. Residents can be transferred out of the observation area to the main facility if they remain afebrile and without symptoms for 14 days after their admission. Testing at the end of this period can be considered to increase certainty that the resident is not infected.

Not one part of the guidelines says that nursing homes have to take covid patients, in fact they highlight the dangers of doing so. The directive forcing them to take said patients and therefore exposing vulnerable people to the virus was written into state legislature by Andrew Cuomo, Trump had nothing to do with that decision. In fact the separation of powers between State and Federal government as laid down in the constitution specifically states that the Federal Government is responsible for

Interstate commerce
Foreign trade and travel
National security

While State level government is responsible for all powers not given to the federal government and 'Police powers', these are powers exercised by the states to enact legislation and promulgate regulations in order to protect public health, welfare and morals and to protect the common good.

The CDC can issue guidelines regarding specific events but they can't make new laws, just enforce ones that have gone through the full legislative process and while they do have some regulatory authority it is to prosecute entities that fail to follow those respective laws. So even if the CDC and CMS had issued a directive stating that nursing homes had to take infected patients, something that (a)would be in direct breach of the Hippocratic Oath and (b)contradict guidelines they had already given so I'm more than inclined to call bullshit, it would only be a guideline so Cuomo could have easily said no. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8350813/Gov-Cuomo-defends-sending-patients-hospitals-nursing-homes-saying-following-Trump.html

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/alternative-care-sites.html

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/long-term-care.html
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Offline Grumpmeister

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #773 on: May 24, 2020, 05:41:44 AM »
The problem connects with something I've been saying for years. Cabinet ministers should be people with relevant qualifications and experience and not given out as rewards to MP's who have toed the party line. At least then they would have a more rounded understanding of their relevant portfolio and in this case would have been far more likely to be able to understand and question the predictive model back at the start.

A good point well made - we are governed by career politicians with PPEs...  noooo:

The PPE debacle is a symptom of the larger issue of outsourcing the manufacture of almost everything to China in order for companies to save money. If Boris has any common sense he will be looking into giving massive tax breaks to companies that bring manufacturing back to the UK.
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Offline Steve

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #774 on: May 24, 2020, 11:56:25 AM »
Meister I'm not defending Cuomo but as a point of fact the federal direction came from the CMS not CDC
 
https://www.cms.gov/files/document/3-13-2020-nursing-home-guidance-covid-19.pdf

And if you condemn him then surely you have to condemn Boris for the equivalent stupid directive here.
 
Well, whatever nevermind

Offline Steve

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #775 on: May 24, 2020, 12:04:03 PM »
A properly tested vaccine isn't going to be anywhere near as effective as people are claiming because the virus has already mutated and there are now multiple separate strains going around. It's the same reason why there isn't one for the common cold.  noooo:

Exactamundo. I was born in 1968. Estimated 80,000 extra people died from the Hong Kong flu then, when lardiness and diabetes wasn't a thing. You shouldn't stop the world due to the poor lifestyles of some.
On March 23rd when lockdown started, 74 people died of it and the 7 day averaged death rate was climbing by 53.46% a day.  Had that continued the UK would have been dead by 3 weeks ago.  There's no evidence that only old and fat lardies die, more the opposite.  Like it or not a real disaster was avoided.  An avoidable disaster yes but by March 23rd it was too late to undo Boris's months of bunglings.  Blame him

The source data is here https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

And all of Sweden would be dead by now. Which hasn't happened. PIA8303 crashed due to bad decisions, the UK economy may well follow suit and better decisions would have resulted in better outcomes. I don't want anyone to die from this virus, it will continue though. I particularly don't want more people to die of the over-reaction which is ruining basic societal norms. Many things kill many more people every day, yet they don't cower to them. It's time we, as a society, grew a pair.

Can you honestly imagine a better outcome if Starmer or Ed Davey were in charge? They would have done the same thing..."science led response". Absolved from all responsibility. The biggest problem is the scientists, they can't agree amongst themselves. And not one would have piped up that smokers are 82% less likely to end up in hospital as it doesn't fit the ongoing narrative, ignoring the other issues that cost the NHS (sorry, we tax-payers) more.

 happ096

There seems to be a misconception here.  Sweden has had lockdown rules.  But Swedes being known for their social conformance didn't need the strict laws that our feral niches did.  And even so their death rate is not good
Well, whatever nevermind

Offline Barman

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #776 on: May 24, 2020, 12:21:44 PM »
A properly tested vaccine isn't going to be anywhere near as effective as people are claiming because the virus has already mutated and there are now multiple separate strains going around. It's the same reason why there isn't one for the common cold.  noooo:

Exactamundo. I was born in 1968. Estimated 80,000 extra people died from the Hong Kong flu then, when lardiness and diabetes wasn't a thing. You shouldn't stop the world due to the poor lifestyles of some.
On March 23rd when lockdown started, 74 people died of it and the 7 day averaged death rate was climbing by 53.46% a day.  Had that continued the UK would have been dead by 3 weeks ago.  There's no evidence that only old and fat lardies die, more the opposite.  Like it or not a real disaster was avoided.  An avoidable disaster yes but by March 23rd it was too late to undo Boris's months of bunglings.  Blame him

The source data is here https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

And all of Sweden would be dead by now. Which hasn't happened. PIA8303 crashed due to bad decisions, the UK economy may well follow suit and better decisions would have resulted in better outcomes. I don't want anyone to die from this virus, it will continue though. I particularly don't want more people to die of the over-reaction which is ruining basic societal norms. Many things kill many more people every day, yet they don't cower to them. It's time we, as a society, grew a pair.

Can you honestly imagine a better outcome if Starmer or Ed Davey were in charge? They would have done the same thing..."science led response". Absolved from all responsibility. The biggest problem is the scientists, they can't agree amongst themselves. And not one would have piped up that smokers are 82% less likely to end up in hospital as it doesn't fit the ongoing narrative, ignoring the other issues that cost the NHS (sorry, we tax-payers) more.

 happ096

There seems to be a misconception here.  Sweden has had lockdown rules.  But Swedes being known for their social conformance didn't need the strict laws that our feral niches did.  And even so their death rate is not good

Rules and Laws are completely different tho... The Swedes were treated like adults and the rest of us treated like criminals... ::)

And even if their death rate is 'not good' it isn't 'as bad' as some others either...
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Online Nick

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #777 on: May 24, 2020, 12:25:11 PM »
Is it time to mention Dominic Cummings, the man who thinks in three word catchphrases and then disregards them?  whistle:
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Offline Steve

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #778 on: May 24, 2020, 12:36:23 PM »
Is it time to mention Dominic Cummings, the man who thinks in three word catchphrases and then disregards them?  whistle:
The git that sacked Sonia Khan for merely suspecting she'd phoned someone and now wants to be considered innocent until 100.000% proven guilty?
 
The git that appears to be holding Boris to ransom?
Well, whatever nevermind

Online Nick

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #779 on: May 24, 2020, 12:39:17 PM »
When I heard he had a 4 year old, my first thought was, "Who would mate with him?"  redface:
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