Fully trained?

[Grumpmeister]

I can just see this training session now:

"This is a Heckler and Koch MP5 9 mm SMG 30 round magazine, single, semi automatic burst and fully automatic firing modes...

..and this is what happens when you shoot someone with one..."

The Independent Police Complaints Commission is to use its own staff to probe how a police support worker was shot in a firearms training session.
The unnamed civilian employee was injured during a Thames Valley Police "firearms awareness training session" at Kidlington in Oxfordshire.

The wounded man remained in a serious but stable condition in hospital after the incident on Wednesday afternoon.

The IPCC was called in to investigate by Thames Valley Police.

'Criminal or disciplinary offences'

IPCC commissioner Deborah Glass said: "I have decided that we should conduct an independent investigation, using our own investigators, to establish the circumstances of this incident.

"The investigation will examine how live ammunition came to be present in a firearm during an awareness session, and consider whether any criminal or disciplinary offences have been committed."

The awareness session is part of an induction for police support staff to provide them with basic firearms awareness.

Well they are certainly aware now, they know for certain that firearms are sodding dangerous when held by an armed officer and one poor sod is acutely aware that being shot hurts like hell.

A Thames Valley Police spokesman said: "The session, held yesterday, was for call takers who have a key role to play to gaining information to assist in the force's spontaneous response to firearms incidents."

The sessions - run by fully trained firearms officers - are held throughout the year usually on a six to eight week basis.

Jesus, if fully trained officers can manage this I'd hate to think what would happen if they let someone without any training loose with one.

[tel]

I read that it was a Magnum, bullet went straight the guy, missing any vital organs.

[Barman]

I bet he was wearing a backpack...

[Barman]

I read that it was a Magnum, bullet went straight the guy, missing any vital organs.

He shot him with an ice cream? 

[Snoopy]

Basic precautions were clearly ignored. Telephone operating civilians, though they do have a responsibility to set priorities prior to asking for an officer's attendance, do not have to know what a firearm looks like nor how it works. Why? Because they can't see it down the 'phone. 
This smacks more of gung-ho coppers showing off. Give some bobbies a weapon and they think they are Dirty Harry.

I was trained by the RAF in the use of firearms and have had occasion to put that training to use.
Lesson one: Make sure it is not loaded.
Lesson two: Double check that it is not loaded.
Lesson three: Cock the weapon and fire it into the ground, just to be sure there is nothing "up the spout" ~ If it goes "BANG!" hand the weapon to the armourer and march yourself to the guardroom for a week's stay.

[tel]

I read that it was a Magnum, bullet went straight the guy, missing any vital organs. 

He shot him with an ice cream?  eeek:

Must have been Scottish

[Grumpmeister]

I've had the belief for a long time now that armed police officers should be drawn directly from military police. At last then you would have properly trained and experienced staff.

[Barman]

I've had the belief for a long time now that armed police officers should be drawn directly from military police. At last then you would have properly trained and experienced staff.

Either that or they will have to introduce a firearms awareness training session awareness training session? 

[Grumpmeister]

Basic precautions were clearly ignored. Telephone operating civilians, though they do have a responsibility to set priorities prior to asking for an officer's attendance, do not have to know what a firearm looks like nor how it works. Why? Because they can't see it down the 'phone. 

Perhaps they are planning for video calls now  

I think you are right about the safety aspect though, many many moons ago (and admittedly nowhere near the same league as you) I was an army cadet and if this episode is anything to go by I'd guess I had more stringent firearms safety training back then than the officers involved in this.

[Misunderstood]

The concept of 'fully trained' police 'marksmen' and other elitist descriptions are nothing but a sad joke.

My kids know more about responsible firearms use that a whole truck load of police.  Why?  because they were brought up with guns around the house. They were not afraid of them and knew precisely what guns could do if handled carelessly.

Now that guns are banned you have the vast majority of the population that have never seen a real gun and are afraid of them and a small percentage of people that do possess them for criminal intent that just don't care about safety.  They find it exceptionally easy to intimidate ordinary folk with a mere sight of a gun.

Then you have the elite police that are authorised to carry guns and Boy! has it gone to their heads!  They think themselves the bees-knees strutting around with their Special Forces H & K's and it is the swagger and strut that causes ALL of these 'accidents' because they cannot be relied on to act responsibly as history has shown.

Whenever you ban something in totality, there is always a body of people that want it because it is banned.  Human nature. But when the bad guys have something that normal people are forbidden - but the police are exempt you must end up with this situation of fear, envy and incompetence.

If criminals can inspire abject fear in people because they have guns and the only other guns in the country are held by people with a proud history of shooting innocent people, then it is hardly surprising that people will fear the police as much as the criminals - if not more, because then there is no-one to turn to for help.

It wouldn't be so bad if every other programme on TV wasn't awash with guns as a matter of daily routine with plenty of experience about what to do with them - if only they could get hold of them.

That breeds the elitism of both camps and fuels the problem.  And the Police State ideology.   

[Darwins Selection]

The difference is that Yardies pay for their ammunition, so 'popping caps' by accident is rare for them.

Of course doing it on purpose for such offences as 'looking at me bitch' still gets through quite a few rounds.

[Sour Puss]

Basic precautions were clearly ignored.

I was trained by the RAF in the use of firearms and have had occasion to put that training to use.
Lesson one: Make sure it is not loaded.
Lesson two: Double check that it is not loaded.
Lesson three: Cock the weapon and fire it into the ground, just to be sure there is nothing "up the spout" ~ If it goes "BANG!" hand the weapon to the armourer and march yourself to the guardroom for a week's stay.

I had a similar experience, had to collect ejected rounds and account for all expended rounds in a range declaration at the end of every session.

Even in ?civvies street? clubs, members were always taught / reminded.


1: Always assume the weapon is loaded

See also: One and two above

2: Always keep it pointing down the range

3: If it jams place it on the table pointing down the range and call over the range master / armourer

This was hammered in to everyone from day one.

What happens is they listen, but are far too excited to take it all in.

Then came the day we all hit the deck in double quick time, when some wally swung around, having fired just one round, saying "Oh it's jammed, what do I do now?" whilst waving it in every direction except down the range.       He found himself excluded from the site thereafter and sulked for a long time.

[Misunderstood]

Oh Great!   Now they'll get to stop you first before shooting you.

Moving targets always were tricky....

[grumpyoldsoldier]

A painful and no doubt expensive ND, I see compo claims for injuries recieved, compo for stress by all those within gunshot etc