The Virtual Pub
Come Inside... => Saloon Bar => Topic started by: Barman on June 26, 2009, 05:03:24 PM
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Found this today... what an excellent, excellent post!
There is no way to sugar-coat this (though they do) Homeopathy is utter drivel. It is complete woo-woo, shake dem bones nonsense. The best thing that can be said about it is it probably does no harm. It probably does no harm because at the extreme dilutions used by it?s practioners homeopathic remedies are chemically indistinguishable from placebos. You can?t double-blind test homeopathic stuff because it is identical to the placebo. Of course homeopaths claim all this shows is that double-blind testing doesn?t work. Well they would say that wouldn?t they?
You can of course get this juju via the blessed National Elf Service (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/truth+behind+nhss+homeopathy+budget/3204562). You know the same National Elf Service which had to be dragged kicking and screaming to give Herceptin to breast cancer patients. The National Elf Service that can?t even keep it?s hospitals clean is squandering our money on magic.
But it gets worse?
Westminster, Salford and Central Lancashire universities offer BSc degrees in homeopathy (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article1550602.ece). I have a BSc in physics so I?m a mite annoyed at that because it stands for ?bachelor of science? and not ?British Superstition Certificate?. Science needs to be defended because otherwise we?ll have maroons dancing naked round ley lines and calling it science. They might as well offer degrees in demonology or head measuring or casting runes or goat entrails or the theology of Scientology.
And those aren?t whacky institutions either. Westminster used to be the Royal Polytechnic and George Cayley taught there. Salford is a pretty big university and Central Lancashire is massive. The enemy is well within our camp. How would you feel if at any of those august institutions (and Preston Poly) you were graduating with a BSc in? say, microbiology next to some whacked out new-ager who was prescribing sugar pills for all ailments and who was getting exactly the same qualification as you were? You might be somewhat narked. I bloody well would be. It is counterfeiting the intellectual coin of the realm. You might as well dig up Sir Isaac Newton and bugger what?s left. It is in short a disgrace.
I seriously considered studying aeronautical engineering at one point. I never thought of studying levitation or yogic flying. Aircraft fly because smart folks worked the problems in things like fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, mechanical engineering, propulsion and control systems. Aircraft are not Tinkerbell and no number of children believing will get an Airbus or Boeing off the tarmac. That requires Rolls Royce or Pratt and Whitney.
Why do we tolerate this perversion of science? Because I think too few of us understand what science is. Too many folks seem to think any methodical system is a science whether it be phrenology, astrology, racial realism or dialectic materialism. I have studied astrology (briefly - a diversion before astrophysics - I am interested in the history of the subject and it seemed germaine at the time) and it is systematic and involves doing sums and everything but it lacks something vital that all true sciences have - empirical support. None of the above systems have any emprical support or even a potentially testable rational theory for how they work. They are just wishful thinking.
It is a common refrain amongst libertarians that the arts and social sciences are full of slack-bladdered lefty claptrap. I couldn?t give a toss about that really because Noam Chomsky et. al. can pontificate until the cows go home because they?re bored but I do care about science and I do care that major British universities are giving BScs to practioners of magic. Because that is just not right. If that drivel is counted as science, as science, along with chem and physics, math, biology, geology and all that jazz then we might as well pack-up and live in yurts because that is the endarkening.
Source (http://www.countingcats.com/?p=3190)
Most excellent, most excellent! happ096
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Wenchy swears by it whistle:
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They should calm down and have a cup of nettle tea.
"It is a common refrain amongst libertarians that the arts and social sciences are full of slack-bladdered lefty claptrap"
Who are these "libertarians"? Are they nudists or summat?
I dont understand anything these days. sad24:
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Wenchy swears by it whistle:
She is not the only one ~ and if you think it does you good then chances are it probably will..
On a personal note I mix the best of "modern" medical science with the best of "alternatives". So far it has kept me alive. My reasoning is simple: If someone had never chewed the bark of a willow tree and found it cured his headache we would never have discovered Aspirin but people thought the idea was mad. Says it all really, there is much we have yet to learn,.
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Wenchy swears by it whistle:
She is not the only one ~ and if you think it does you good then chances are it probably will..
On a personal note I mix the best of "modern" medical science with the best of "alternatives". So far it has kept me alive. My reasoning is simple: If someone had never chewed the bark of a willow tree and found it cured his headache we would never have discovered Aspirin but people thought the idea was mad. Says it all really, there is much we have yet to learn,.
Except that in double-blind scientific tests Homoeopathy has been proven not to work. And scientifically, there is more of the curative chemicals in a glass of my piss than in a prepared Homoeopathic 'treatment'...
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Hawthorne Berry Extract is well know for it's use in treating arterial and heart problems. Was around long before Beta Blockers and the like. My cardiologist is happy that I use both. "Who knows which helps most" is his attitude.
Equally dandylion leaves boiled and made into a "Tea" are a very good diuretic and it is proven that Lettuce has a soporific effect as good as any non prescription sleeping pill.
All I am saying is "we don't know everything"
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Hawthorne Berry Extract is well know for it's use in treating arterial and heart problems. Was around long before Beta Blockers and the like. My cardiologist is happy that I use both. "Who knows which helps most" is his attitude.
Equally dandylion leaves boiled and made into a "Tea" are a very good diuretic and it is proven that Lettuce has a soporific effect as good as any non prescription sleeping pill.
All I am saying is "we don't know everything"
No, we don't know everything...
But dandelion and lettuce contain chemicals that can be extracted, tested and proven to have beneficial effects.
The very point of Homoeopathy is that chemicals (some prolly extracted from dandelion and lettuce) are diluted to the point where they don't actually exist in the solution. Moreover, scientific double-blind tests have proven that apart from the placebo effect a homoeopathic remedy is no better than tap water.
The point of the original post was to ask if a subject like homoeopathy should be taught in university (what do they do for three years FFS?) and carry the same qualification as one of the real science degrees?
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Hawthorne Berry Extract is well know for it's use in treating arterial and heart problems. Was around long before Beta Blockers and the like. My cardiologist is happy that I use both. "Who knows which helps most" is his attitude.
Equally dandylion leaves boiled and made into a "Tea" are a very good diuretic and it is proven that Lettuce has a soporific effect as good as any non prescription sleeping pill.
All I am saying is "we don't know everything"
No, we don't know everything...
But dandelion and lettuce contain chemicals that can be extracted, tested and proven to have beneficial effects.
The very point of Homoeopathy is that chemicals (some prolly extracted from dandelion and lettuce) are diluted to the point where they don't actually exist in the solution. Moreover, scientific double-blind tests have proven that apart from the placebo effect a homoeopathic remedy is no better than tap water.
The point of the original post was to ask if a subject like homoeopathy should be taught in university (what do they do for three years FFS?) and carry the same qualification as one of the real science degrees?
Take your point about degrees completely and also the placebo effect (see my comment "If you think it does you good it probably does"). But then with regard to universities (and in particular the "uprated" polytechnics etc) ~ they offer degrees in almost anything. It is incumbent upon employers to dig a little deeper into what the BSc or BA is actually about. That said employers still like to see that a person has the ability to apply themselves to a three/four year course of non compulsory education no matter what the discipline. Anyone who chooses the so called "soft options" and the "fringe" qualifications still has to study and, perhaps more to the point, pay for the privilege. There is no such thing as a free ride at university any more. If they want to put themselves into hock to gain a qualification that is, in the opinion of many, a useless discipline good luck to 'em. That's what me Dad fought a war for ~ so that these people can do what they want with their lives and money.
Having a "qualified" (yes from Sussex University) Homeopath (Homoeopath if you prefer. OED says either is acceptable) for a cousin, I know she worked hard, they have to learn a f*ck of a lot of plant biology/recognition etc + Human physiology and such, as well as the right incantations to use when mixing their potions and spells. I dunno if it really works or if it should be a degree that she has (Her BSc Hom seems to cover what it is for BTW) But I do know she paid out a lot for four years as a mature student and now makes a bloody fortune selling her "skills" in private practice.
Homeopathy is also available on the NHS so someone must think it has a place.
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I know she worked hard, they have to learn a f*ck of a lot of plant biology/recognition etc + Human physiology and such, as well as the right incantations to use when mixing their potions and spells.
So do witch-doctors.
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Which Doctors?
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Which Doctors?
Genus Locum? whistle:
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It may well be clap trap. All I know is that modern medicene could do nothing with my dodgy immune session for nearly two years. With me visiting every couple of months for more antibiotics, more sick notes etc etc etc. Two visits to the homeopath and I was sorted. Other than a couple of migranes I haven't had a day off sick in over a year. If it's bollocks then it is bollocks that works for me and frankly that is all I really cared about.
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I thought you had had The Itch rubschin:
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Two visits to the homeopath and I was sorted. Other than a couple of migranes I haven't had a day off sick in over a year.
Sorry Wenchy but I find that very difficult to believe. What exactly did these two visits involve? I genuinely would like to know as I do think it's clap trap.
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Two visits to the homeopath and I was sorted. Other than a couple of migranes I haven't had a day off sick in over a year.
Sorry Wenchy but I find that very difficult to believe. What exactly did these two visits involve? I genuinely would like to know as I do think it's clap trap.
You may be broadly right Uncle, but I make a plea on behalf of Acupuncture which I have witnessed being used with great success on lame animals.
As they are unlikely to have been swayed by TV programs, womens magazines or herbal advisors, I am inclined to think it works. I did on my hip.
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You are a lame animal and I claim my ?5
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You are a lame animal and I claim my ?5
No, I definitely read womens magazines.
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Two visits to the homeopath and I was sorted. Other than a couple of migraines I haven't had a day off sick in over a year.
Sorry Wenchy but I find that very difficult to believe. What exactly did these two visits involve? I genuinely would like to know as I do think it's clap trap.
The first visit was basically a lot of talking. An attempt to track back to when I had started being ill all the time etc etc. In fact very like a counselling appointment. She then gave me a set of tablets/remedies to take. I took them and there was a marked improvement in another area I was also seeing her for. The second visit involved discussing my reaction to the first set of tablets what I felt had improved what hadn't. She then gave me a stronger dosage of one of the tablets and away I went.
All in all I saw her once a month for six months. If it had just been the immune issues then I would have stopped after two but my other problem took a little longer and admittedly whilst she helped it is in no way sorted.
As I've said. Quite possibly claptrap but it worked for me. I had been averaging a minimum of 20 days off sick a year for three years. Actually sickness not sickies. With varying chest infections, colds, stomach bugs etc etc etc. Since those first two visits I have had five days off with actual sickness. Two with the recent pestilence and three for migraines that were related to the issue she couldn't sort.
As I say, I'm no expert but it worked for me when "normal" medicine told me there was nothing they could do. I was desperate which is why I went to see her. But I'd been desperate for three years and willing to believe that "modern medicine" would work too. It didn't, she did. I'm not saying that it would or will work for everyone nor am I claiming that I will never visit the doctor again. Because I have, recently with the pestilence. But in the future when modern medicine fails me again I will certainly go back to it if I have to.
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The way I see it is that the 'counselling' is a major part of the treatment, especially with something non-specific that can have a psychosomatic cause. Just talking about it to a sympathetic ear can make difference. As to diluting a preparation, I just cannot see how that could work. Which means your 'stronger' dose must have in fact been weaker.
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Technically yes. But I'd had counselling not long after the immune system breakdown had started so it couldn't really have been that alone. And she had to a certain extent sorted out my hormone issues.
So anyway, not for everyone, yes rather witch doctorish but I'm not going to knock it! lol:
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happy001 happy001
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
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My recently retired GP was also a registered Homeopath
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happy001 happy001
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
Excellent!
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happy001 happy001
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
happy001 happy001 happy001
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At a session of the House of Commons select committee on science and technology, the professional standards director of Boots, Paul Bennett, had a remarkable admission to make about one of his company's key products, its range of homeopathic medicines.
"I have no evidence before me to suggest they are efficacious," he acknowledged. "And we look very much for the evidence to support that. It is about consumer choice for us."
And you can see why. Millions of people believe they are cures for most of life's woes, from headaches to eczema. Prince Charles even claims one helped him get over the effects of his recent broken arm. But now the efficacy of homeopathic drugs is under attack ? from MPs who believe their effects are unproven and that their use is a waste of taxpayers' money. They are pressing to ensure that the National Health Service no longer spends an estimated ?4m on homeopathic treatments.
Last year the select committee began hearing evidence about the use of homeopathy in the NHS and will finalise the wording of its report on the subject tomorrow. The report will be published the following week ? and is likely to call for a complete reappraisal of the role of homeopathy in the health service.
Seems the scientists say 'No ' - which I guess is no big surprise lol:
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Didn't I read somewhere that some people tried to overdose on them outside Boots...? lol:
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(https://www.virtual-pub.com/SMF/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.telegraph.co.uk%2Ftelegraph%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F01569%2Fhomeopathyoverdose_1569311c.jpg&hash=829fdba31e69bfaa64e93f002744ccd245dd1d17)
Members of the Merseyside Skeptics Society gathered at Boots branches around the UK and downed whole bottles of tablets.
They say homeopathy is "scientifically absurd" and want the Boots chain to withdraw all treatments from its shelves.
Homeopathy uses very highly diluted substances to trigger the body to heal itself - but the MSS said: "They are diluted so much there is nothing in them."
At 10.23 on Saturday 30th January, Simon took a vial out of his pocket. He examined the instructions on the label: two pills to be taken every two hours for the first six doses. The contents should not be touched by hand, but be administered directly into the mouth. The vial should be kept both out of reach and sight of children. The middle-aged man then knocked back all 84 tablets and swallowed.
As Simon Singh stood in a public square in London, and waited for the effects of his overdose to take hold, hundreds of other despairing men and women around him poured scores of pills and medicines down their throats.
By taking remedies in quantities far beyond the dosages recommended by their manufacturers, Singh ? a television presenter and author of several books on science ? joined campaigners attempting to demonstrate the case against homoeopathy, and those who supply it.
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Only ?4m? ~ not much when you think of the money they spend on Management Consultants to tell them how to clean a ward and then they ignore the advice anyway. ::)
Anyway ~ Don't say it doesn't work so that's it ~ neither do most of the "scientific" poisons drugs that the NHS over-prescribes to the tune of some ?60m annually.
These "Overdose" to prove something idiots have proved that they can safely take more than the recommended dose because "we didn't all die" ~ what they aren't saying is whether they felt any better for it.
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(https://www.virtual-pub.com/SMF/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.telegraph.co.uk%2Ftelegraph%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F01569%2Fhomeopathyoverdose_1569311c.jpg&hash=829fdba31e69bfaa64e93f002744ccd245dd1d17)
Members of the Merseyside Skeptics Society gathered at Boots branches around the UK and downed whole bottles of tablets.
They say homeopathy is "scientifically absurd" and want the Boots chain to withdraw all treatments from its shelves.
Homeopathy uses very highly diluted substances to trigger the body to heal itself - but the MSS said: "They are diluted so much there is nothing in them."
At 10.23 on Saturday 30th January, Simon took a vial out of his pocket. He examined the instructions on the label: two pills to be taken every two hours for the first six doses. The contents should not be touched by hand, but be administered directly into the mouth. The vial should be kept both out of reach and sight of children. The middle-aged man then knocked back all 84 tablets and swallowed.
As Simon Singh stood in a public square in London, and waited for the effects of his overdose to take hold, hundreds of other despairing men and women around him poured scores of pills and medicines down their throats.
By taking remedies in quantities far beyond the dosages recommended by their manufacturers, Singh ? a television presenter and author of several books on science ? joined campaigners attempting to demonstrate the case against homoeopathy, and those who supply it.
hahahahaha!
Excellent! lol: lol: lol:
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happy001 happy001
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
happy001 happy001
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What I don't get is why these people are trying so hard to prove it doesn't work. What's it to them?
Some think homeopathy helps them (St John's Wort for example) and if they think that where is the harm?
Let's be sensible ~ if no-one had chewed on Willow Bark and found it cured their headache we would never have had aspirin. If no-one had sipped an infusion of Foxglove we would never have had the heart medications we rely on. In their day these now proven and well established medicines were not seen as science but as witchcraft.
Taken all in all I think Simon Singh and those who support him are wrong. There may not be what he would call "scientific" proof, there may not be the peer reviewed studies he shouts about the absence of but equally there is no evidence that some of these remedies don't work. In my opinion he is simply a bigoted, loud mouth with a personal axe to grind. He wants the personal publicity.
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What I don't get is why these people are trying so hard to prove it doesn't work. What's it to them?
Some think homeopathy helps them (St John's Wort for example) and if they think that where is the harm?
Let's be sensible ~ if no-one had chewed on Willow Bark and found it cured their headache we would never have had aspirin. If no-one had sipped an infusion of Foxglove we would never have had the heart medications we rely on. In their day these now proven and well established medicines were not seen as science but as witchcraft.
Taken all in all I think Simon Singh and those who support him are wrong. There may not be what he would call "scientific" proof, there may not be the peer reviewed studies he shouts about the absence of but equally there is no evidence that some of these remedies don't work. In my opinion he is simply a bigoted, loud mouth with a personal axe to grind. He wants the personal publicity.
No, you're wrong.
Homeopathy involves diluting the 'active' incregient thousands of times to the point where it ceases to exist.
Scientific 'double-blind' tests prove beyond doubt that it doesn't work. You may as well drink a glass of water from the tap.
The only possible effect of a homoeopathic 'remedy' is the placebo effect.
'Remedies' like St John's Wort, taken in stronger doses have a definable, measurable effect on the human body. You simply can't compare St John's Wort and chewing willow bark to a homoeopathic solution.
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scared:
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What I don't get is why these people are trying so hard to prove it doesn't work. What's it to them?
Some think homeopathy helps them (St John's Wort for example) and if they think that where is the harm?
Let's be sensible ~ if no-one had chewed on Willow Bark and found it cured their headache we would never have had aspirin. If no-one had sipped an infusion of Foxglove we would never have had the heart medications we rely on. In their day these now proven and well established medicines were not seen as science but as witchcraft.
Taken all in all I think Simon Singh and those who support him are wrong. There may not be what he would call "scientific" proof, there may not be the peer reviewed studies he shouts about the absence of but equally there is no evidence that some of these remedies don't work. In my opinion he is simply a bigoted, loud mouth with a personal axe to grind. He wants the personal publicity.
No, you're wrong.
Homeopathy involves diluting the 'active' ingredient thousands of times to the point where it ceases to exist.
Scientific 'double-blind' tests prove beyond doubt that it doesn't work. You may as well drink a glass of water from the tap.
The only possible effect of a homeopathic 'remedy' is the placebo effect.
'Remedies' like St John's Wort, taken in stronger doses have a definable, measurable effect on the human body. You simply can't compare St John's Wort and chewing willow bark to a homeopathic solution.
We obviously hold and are entitled to hold differing opinions as to the efficacy or otherwise of various remedies and frankly I am not prepared to argue the merits or otherwise of any one "treatment " over another. I hold strong views on "Scientific" medications, that are defined as prescribed poisons drugs that claim to have peer reviewed and published results ~ but it is amazing how often these go wrong isn't it? ~ and alternative medications, be they homeopathic, the laying on of hands or whatever. I have seen both work and both fail. Both have in fact had beneficial effects on me and others have had quite the opposite. One scientifically proven "wonder" drug damn nearly killed me whereas I gained a great deal of comfort if not actual physical healing from a laying on of hands.
It is my belief that we don't actually know what works and what doesn't. There are no guarantees, just a balance of probabilities, that the Medical Profession won't kill you as they try to cure you and they get it wrong often enough to sow doubt in most minds. What we do know, because we can see the evidence with our own eyes, is that the Pharmaceutical Companies have a huge vested interest in killing off any competition to their products and that alone is reason enough for me to doubt their word.
In my own experience, apart from the "healer" I have spoken of (and how or why that helped me at the time I know not, I know only that it did), I have had many different drugs prescribed over the years, everyone fully tested and peer reviewed. Many, in fact, made my condition worse rather than better. This alone makes me very suspicious of anyone who claims he/she can cure my ills. Partly my scepticism can be traced to the fact that I know there is no cure for what ails me. It will kill me in the end I know and most of the prescribed drugs (poisons) have side effects that make my condition worse rather than easier to live with (I recommend you read "Snake Oil and Other Preoccupations" by the late John Diamond) but I keep trying in the hope that one will work. Because there is no cure as such I am open minded and willing to give almost anything (except magic turnips) a try.
The reason I mentioned Foxgloves and Willow Bark was to demonstrate that we do really never know what is round the corner, what is scoffed at today may well be hailed as a wonder drug tomorrow. I recall a Science Master dismissing the idea of Space Flight when I was at school. Bet he felt a fool when man landed on the moon.
So if a glass of water can cure my thirst I don't have a problem extending that to a few drops of well diluted digitalis making my heart work better.
What I do question is:
(i) That anyone has the right to say I am wrong and they are right. I believe we can both be right or wrong and nobody actually knows what is about to be discovered that may prove either or both right or wrong. I am happy to accept that ~ why can't others?
(ii) What is Mr Singh's actual interest in this? A crusade to rid the world of Snake Oil Salesmen or a blast of self publicity ~ I am too old to believe he is doing it for purely altruistic reasons.
(iii) Why is there no answer to my point about swallowing more than the recommended dose proving only that it wouldn't harm those who *claimed* to have taken the remedies. Nobody has said if they felt any better after taking the "overdose" or even if they felt unwell before they took the medications. That alone surely makes the report somewhat one sided.
*They could have been swallowing Smarties or M&Ms for all we know. No reporter seems to have taken any of the "remedies" away for forensic testing.*
I am taking Prozac ~ or at least that what it says in the box but I know the girl who typed the label. Before she got the job at the pharmacy she worked in Woolworth. Laid off when they shut she got a job in the local chemists. How do I know what the fvcking pills are? I have to have faith that it will do what it says on the box. For all I know they could be worm tablets. I'll find out eventually. Either I'll have a good shit or I will feel more cheerful. Fingers crossed eh?
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I have been telling you about this for ages. (http://www.alive.com/3610a6a2.php?subject_bread_cramb=952) noooo:
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and this (http://www.50plus.com/Relationships/BrowseAllArticles/index.cfm?documentID=18112)
Miss D to note as well
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rubschin:
50 + evil:
Gym it is then lol:
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A win win situation then ...work out at the gym after work...and then work out at night with Rock Hard Ray
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sick2:
Rock Hard Ray doesn't do it for me I'm afraid noooo:
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sick2:
Rock Hard Ray doesn't do it for me I'm afraid noooo:
Like homoeopathic remedies then? happy001