The Virtual Pub
Come Inside... => Saloon Bar => Topic started by: Grumpmeister on March 11, 2008, 09:44:12 AM
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Sense of belonging my arse, this uis just another half baked idea being banded around to make it look as if the government is doing something to promote national identity. It won't change a damn thing.
Being proud to be British means that we have to have country to be proud of. Unfortunately the useless toadying blairite morons we've had running the show haven't left us a hell of a lot to be proud of unless you get a kick out of having the highest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe.
School-leavers are to be encouraged to swear an oath of allegiance to Queen and country under new proposals being unveiled on British citizenship.
Ex-attorney general Lord Goldsmith, who is calling for the ceremony in a report to Gordon Brown, says it would give teenagers a sense of belonging.
But Labour peer Baroness Kennedy says: "I think it's rather silly."
He is also proposing a new public holiday to celebrate "Britishness" along the lines of Australia Day.
John Dunford from the Association of School and College leaders said it was "a half-baked idea".
Graduation ceremonies
A Scottish Government spokesman said it did not support the idea and did not believe it would find favour with parents or school pupils.
Lord Goldsmith, who quit government in June, believes that citizenship ceremonies for teenagers would help improve their sense of what it means to be a British citizen.
"Certainly there isn't a crises of national identity, but the research does tend to show there's been a diminution in national pride, in this sense of belonging," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
"The citizenship ceremonies, which are just one of the many things I have suggested, are a way of marking that passage of being a student of citizenship to a citizen in practise.
"It does make sense to promote a sense of shared belonging, a sense that you are part of a community with a common venture, to integrate better newcomers to our society and be clearer about what the rights and responsibilities are."
Lord Goldsmith said the report "doesn't particularly say about oaths of allegiance at all - that's a possibility that's raised and the details will have to be worked through".
Republican involvement?
While he favours an oath of allegiance to the Queen, the statement could be a pledge of commitment to the country or a statement of what the rights and responsibilities of citizens are, he said.
He also stressed that he could not see why Republicans would not want to swear an oath, even though they may not believe in the present system of government.
However, Graham Smith of the group Republic, which campaigns for the abolition of the monarchy, told the BBC: "It's offensive to people who do actually cherish democracy and who actually cherish the sorts of liberties we've fought for centuries."
He said swearing an oath would be an attack on people's freedom of conscience.
If children refuse to take part, he added, "are they then going to be told or taught that they are somehow less British or less loyal or less patriotic?"
Treason laws
Citizenship ceremonies already exist for immigrants and the report suggests holding them in schools, where youngsters who are about to leave the school and move on to work or further education could participate.
The peer has consulted people in the UK, Europe, North America and elsewhere to pull together a series of proposals aimed at providing a "much clearer vision of what it means to be a citizen".
Lady Kennedy, a human rights lawyer, said the proposal was based on a misconception of what it meant to be proud of a country.
She said: "The symbols of a healthy democracy are not to be found in empty gestures and I'm afraid I see this as an empty gesture."
Other proposals are thought likely to include a revamp of Britain's old treason laws, such as sleeping with the wife of the heir to the throne, which is punishable by life in prison.
Lord Goldsmith has also hinted at updating the national anthem by removing verses which are rarely performed.
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I don't want to swear an oath. And I wouldn't allow my kids to do so either. I still have nightmares about being in an American school and saying the plege every morning. Looking round to see all the little Stepford children. scared2:
Singing the national anthem every morning I could get on board with, I could possibly be talked into an extra bank holiday too.
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Singing the national anthem every morning I could get on board with, I could possibly be talked into an extra bank holiday too.
Thats assuming that the kids know the words to it Wenchy. Come to think of it I'm buggered if I can remember them myself. noooo:
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All the more reason to begin doing so.
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Straw poll at brekky today on this item
14 yo (15 in June) THW Said "That's silly .... No way would I do that"
9 yo (10 in August) said "Stupid idea" and went back to his wheatibangs
7 yo (Just) "I'm not thwearing anything 'coth I'd get into trouble again" .... apparently he recently called a classmate a little sod (an off used expression around the kennel) and had been hauled up for it.
So the Snoopy Household votes "NO!"
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Surely if you want to engender a sense of national pride and identity you would be better off looking at the people who have made a huge impact on the country and even the rest of the world. People like Brunel, Stevenson, Churchill, Dyson, Hawking. Celebrate people who show the best of what we can do instead of swearing alleigence to an unelected sponger.
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I don't really think they should be swearing allegiance to anything. However, I do think that as a nation we need to do something to install pride in our youth. Especially in England. There is nothing that kids do at school in this country that teaches them to be proud of their country. Which is at direct odds from what Mr Wench and I here from teachers in Scotland and Wales.
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I don't really think they should be swearing allegiance to anything. However, I do think that as a nation we need to do something to install pride in our youth. Especially in England. There is nothing that kids do at school in this country that teaches them to be proud of their country. Which is at direct odds from what Mr Wench and I here from teachers in Scotland and Wales.
::)
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Mr Wench would prolly break his chalk if he saw spelling like that Wenchy whistle:
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Opppsy. redface:
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What is there to pledge allegiance to these days?
Queen and country? The royal family is a complete joke and has been for years – who respects them ‘cept white haired old ladies and Wenchy? Each generation gets worse… the only one I ever had respect for was horse face.
And what is there to respect in the country nowadays? Everything British that we recognised as children is being destroyed by the PC brigade in the cause of multiculturalism. Multiculturalism my arse!
The country makes nothing and survives on ‘service’ industries – just about anything you can think of that was ‘great’ has been sold off to the highest bidder, the transport system is shite, the NHS is unbelievably crap, crime has reached unbelievable proportions and everybody knows that the Olympic Games will be an unprecedented farce with a single-figure medal count.
For cod’s sake the only sport we can be proud of these days is the Paralympics – I nearly typed paralytics then which would have been closer to the truth. Football, no; cricket, no; rugby, no; the country specialises in producing dole scroungers and binge drinkers!
I remember when I was at primary school (say 1967ish) the first black boy joined us. An African lad called Kwaku Umpoma – everybody liked him and we were fascinated by his features and amazing sporting ability but look at the schools shown on TV now – you can’t spot a white person in the crowd and lessons consist of religious appreciation and Welsh.
You can’t solve the countries problems by getting Mgumbo Bjarti to swear allegiance to the crown and country when he really follows a foreign football/cricket team attends the local mosque at weekends and has a home life and culture that none of us on this board would recognise.
That’s my two cents anyway…
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I agree with every word BM
Mind you when I was at Primary school the only black kid int eh whole place was always cast as the baddie in school plays. rubschin:
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Wenchy is right. My kids school flies a Welsh Flag (Maen Ddraig) and they are taught Welsh culture. In Scotland, where Mrs Snoopy went to school (despite being an Essex girl ~ long story) they were taught Scottish history. There are many examples. The most telling of course is that when there is a census or you are asked for your nationality on any government forms English is not acceptable. Irish, Welsh and Scottish can all be used as can Afro Carribean, Asian, Indian Asian, Pakistani, Bengali etc but you write English and they cross it out and put you down as British.
Address that problem first Minister
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I agree with every word BM
Mind you when I was at Primary school the only black kid int eh whole place was always cast as the baddie in school plays. rubschin:
I think Kwaku had the same start in English school life! lol:
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The problem is that while Scotland and Wales can teach their children about their cultural history without problems Britain's history is being hammered by the PC brigade due to our historical tendancy to nick other people's countries with the clever use of large armies and flags.
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Do I recognise some Eddie Izzard there?
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Do I recognise some Eddie Izzard there?
Are you suggesting plagiarism? eeek:
That’s all my own work thank you very much! Banghead
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I did swear an oath to the Queen, her Heirs and successors etc when I joined the RAF. Far as I am concerned that still holds. That said there were/are reasons for that oath being required. To go down the hand on heart, pledging allegiance to the country as per the Yank's route is not one I would favour .... simply not our way really is it.
It is interesting that Beckham was one of the few football players who one ever saw actually singing the National Anthem before a game. Most of the rugger buggers do so.
No taken all in all it is just another headline grabbing attempt by Brown and his crew to convince us that he/they are not really Scots determined to take us for all they can.
In the old days they used to raid South of the border to rustle cattle, steal whatever they could find and rape the women .... strikes me that little has changed ~ this is just a more sophisticated form of pillage.
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And what is there to respect in the country nowadays? Everything British that we recognised as children is being destroyed by the PC brigade in the cause of multiculturalism. Multiculturalism my arse!
And there in lies the problem. Teach them to be proud of what England was and perhaps they will have a sense of pride to make the place better.
Snoops made many good points.
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Do I recognise some Eddie Izzard there?
Are you suggesting plagiarism? eeek:
That’s all my own work thank you very much! Banghead
My query was addressed to GM you bald twit! And btw can someone correct the typo in the thread title?
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Do I recognise some Eddie Izzard there?
Are you suggesting plagiarism? eeek:
That’s all my own work thank you very much! Banghead
I think Nick was on about my clever use of flags comment Baldymort.
And yes it did come from Eddie, under the circumstances I couldnt resist using it. redface:
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Do I recognise some Eddie Izzard there?
Are you suggesting plagiarism? eeek:
That’s all my own work thank you very much! Banghead
I think Nick was on about my clever use of flags comment Baldymort.
And yes it did come from Eddie, under the circumstances I couldnt resist using it. redface:
You see BM!!
A very funny vid of Eddie contained all that stuff!
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redface:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k&feature=related)
Here you are BM
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I have a feeling that some of the patrons have been venting their spleen to the Beeb. Some corking comments here.
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4456&edition=1&ttl=20080311165256 (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4456&edition=1&ttl=20080311165256)
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I have a feeling that some of the patrons have been venting their spleen to the Beeb. Some corking comments here.
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4456&edition=1&ttl=20080311165256 (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4456&edition=1&ttl=20080311165256)
I got this... noooo:
Sorry Your message appears to contain offensive language. Please remove any offensive words from it.
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I have a feeling I'm going to regret this but what did you try and post BM? eeek:
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I have a feeling that some of the patrons have been venting their spleen to the Beeb. Some corking comments here.
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4456&edition=1&ttl=20080311165256 (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4456&edition=1&ttl=20080311165256)
Unfortunately much of the power of their vented spleens is lost in the poor appalling English used to give voice to their feelings. I have to assume this is either a demonstration of a modern education or that English - She eez not their mother tongue .... Yes?
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I have a feeling I'm going to regret this but what did you try and post BM? eeek:
Just the thing I posted on here earlier... evil:
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Re-edited to get past the BBC swear filters BM.
What is there to pledge allegiance to these days?
Queen and country? The royal family is a complete joke and has been for years – who respects them ‘cept white haired old ladies? Each generation gets worse… the only one I ever had respect for was horse face.
And what is there to respect in the country nowadays? Everything British that we recognised as children is being destroyed by the PC brigade in the cause of multiculturalism.
The country makes nothing and survives on ‘service’ industries – just about anything you can think of that was ‘great’ has been sold off to the highest bidder, the transport system is a joke, the NHS is unbelievably rubbish, crime has reached unbelievable proportions and everybody knows that the Olympic Games will be an unprecedented farce with a single-figure medal count.
For God’s sake the only sport we can be proud of these days is the Paralympics – I nearly typed paralytics then which would have been closer to the truth. Football, no; cricket, no; rugby, no; the country specialises in producing dole scroungers and binge drinkers!
I remember when I was at primary school (say 1967ish) the first black boy joined us. An African lad called Kwaku Umpoma – everybody liked him and we were fascinated by his features and amazing sporting ability but look at the schools shown on TV now – you can’t spot a white person in the crowd and lessons consist of religious appreciation and Welsh.
You can’t solve the countries problems by getting Mgumbo Bjarti to swear allegiance to the crown and country when he really follows a foreign football/cricket team attends the local mosque at weekends and has a home life and culture that none of us on this board would recognise.
That’s my two cents anyway…
Thats worth a couple of pints of Doombar on the house I think. whistle:
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Re-edited to get past the BBC swear filters BM.
What is there to pledge allegiance to these days?
Queen and country? The royal family is a complete joke and has been for years – who respects them ‘cept white haired old ladies? Each generation gets worse… the only one I ever had respect for was horse face.
And what is there to respect in the country nowadays? Everything British that we recognised as children is being destroyed by the PC brigade in the cause of multiculturalism.
The country makes nothing and survives on ‘service’ industries – just about anything you can think of that was ‘great’ has been sold off to the highest bidder, the transport system is a joke, the NHS is unbelievably rubbish, crime has reached unbelievable proportions and everybody knows that the Olympic Games will be an unprecedented farce with a single-figure medal count.
For God’s sake the only sport we can be proud of these days is the Paralympics – I nearly typed paralytics then which would have been closer to the truth. Football, no; cricket, no; rugby, no; the country specialises in producing dole scroungers and binge drinkers!
I remember when I was at primary school (say 1967ish) the first black boy joined us. An African lad called Kwaku Umpoma – everybody liked him and we were fascinated by his features and amazing sporting ability but look at the schools shown on TV now – you can’t spot a white person in the crowd and lessons consist of religious appreciation and Welsh.
You can’t solve the countries problems by getting Mgumbo Bjarti to swear allegiance to the crown and country when he really follows a foreign football/cricket team attends the local mosque at weekends and has a home life and culture that none of us on this board would recognise.
That’s my two cents anyway…
Thats worth a couple of pints of Doombar on the house I think. whistle:
Bollocks to that – they have a 500 character maximum too – I’m glad I don’t pay my TV licence now! point:
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Oh trust me, if you did still pay it I saw a little article on the BBC news site that would have your blood pressure higher than Versuvius when she erupted. Banghead
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Oh trust me, if you did still pay it I saw a little article on the BBC news site that would have your blood pressure higher than Versuvius when she erupted. Banghead
But the bastards won’t pay to encrypt their channels with Sky which is why I need such a mahoosive dish to watch it… Banghead
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Check my new thread BM, then stand back and wait for the fireworks. Banghead
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… the only one I ever had respect for was horse face.…
lol:
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I have a feeling that some of the patrons have been venting their spleen to the Beeb. Some corking comments here.
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4456&edition=1&ttl=20080311165256 (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4456&edition=1&ttl=20080311165256)
This one sums it up for me:
Absolute madness.
I already consider myself British - and thus a subject of Her Majesty - by virtue of birth; i don't need to affirm this and neither should anyone else in a distinctly unBritish tradition.
For me, swearing allegience to Her Majesty in a ceremony is only detrimental as it suggests something that goes without saying need be ratified in speech.
People will resent these suggestions because people resent any idea of hierarchy, order or place in society - it's all about money
Aaron Cross, Hove, Brighton
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Chunter me ole mucker .... where you bin?
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Good morrow Snoops, I usually pop in for a minute or two each day to read the latest grumblings, but don't always get the time to post. I'd love to claim I was far too busy with my (ahem) high-brow job, but the truth is I have about 4 or 5 forums on the go, and a whole internet to surf. whistle:
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Good morrow Snoops, I usually pop in for a minute or two each day to read the latest grumblings, but don't always get the time to post. I'd love to claim I was far too busy with my (ahem) high-brow job, but the truth is I have about 4 or 5 forums on the go, and a whole internet to surf. whistle:
Nice to see you still scrape the bottom from time to time. whistle:
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With Wenchy that would take quite some time, I am told eveilgrin: