The Virtual Pub
Come Inside... => Saloon Bar => Topic started by: Barman on May 16, 2007, 07:31:31 AM
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I simply don?t understand this!
Education spokesman David Willetts told the BBC that middle class children dominated the grammar intake, saying "not many poor children" got in.
Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6658613.stm)
I?m broadly for selection ? it just makes sense to me to give advantage to those who are either gifted or have made extra effort at junior school ? I was neither. Having a ?flat playing field? just doesn?t make sense ? there will always be children who simply have no interest in academia and we are wasting valuable resources on them.
More important though is why the Tories think it is a good idea to agree with Labour? Why effectively say ?you were right all along, ?academies? are a much better idea than selection and grammar schools?? Same with trident ? why agree? Do you think Cameron might be a Labour ?mole??
One good thing you could say about Labour is they proved to be a better opposition than this pathetic lot.
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I am all for meritocracy but the question is why did so many children from poor backgrounds fail to get in to Grammar Schools?
Is it if you're poor you tend to be thick or vice versa?
I don't believe either is true so there should be a 'level playing field' in having one type of school. I just think that there should be streaming within each year to give those with the ability to work without disruption.
I do however think that 'special needs' children should have separate schools.
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If you are poor the chances are you live in an area with mostly crap schools. And that can include crap primary schools too. If your parents have some dosh, they can move to a catchment for a better school or even send you privately.
My parents rented a house till I was 15 and worked all hours. I got to Grammar School and, like many of my class mates, it moved us out of wage slavery and renting into university, prof qualifications and good prospects.
We still have Grammar schools round here and I hope The Boy gets to one of them!
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I got to Grammar School and, like many of my class mates, it moved us out of wage slavery and renting into university, prof qualifications and good prospects.
How you might have been if processed by a state Comprehensive is a sobering thought. ;)
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I would have been a plumber and far better off, but perhaps less well read evil:
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I am all for meritocracy but the question is why did so many children from poor backgrounds fail to get in to Grammar Schools?
Is it if you're poor you tend to be thick or vice versa?
My own experience in the early 70?s was that they were all thugs with little interest in school or the learning process?
Given the lack of discipline in schools now I can?t believe that it has got any better.
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Why is more likely for a school to be crap because it's in a catchment area that's poor? It's back to the same question, are poor people thicker than average?
or lazier? ~ that's a possibility.
I judge you to be neither Nick and I'd bet you would have done fine in a Comprehensive if they had been around when we were 11.
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Why is more likely for a school to be crap because it's in a catchment area that's poor? It's back to the same question, are poor people thicker than average?
or lazier? ~ that's a possibility.
I judge you to be neither Nick and I'd bet you would have done fine in a Comprehensive if they had been around when we were 11.
I think it has much to do with the quality of staff schools in such areas are able to attract.
Money is the same but they want the wheels to still be on their cars at going home time.
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Why is more likely for a school to be crap because it's in a catchment area that's poor? It's back to the same question, are poor people thicker than average?
or lazier? ~ that's a possibility.
I judge you to be neither Nick and I'd bet you would have done fine in a Comprehensive if they had been around when we were 11.
I think it has much to do with the quality of staff schools in such areas are able to attract.
Money is the same but they want the wheels to still be on their cars at going home time.
There is also a great deal of pressure on kids in poorer circumstances to stop messing around in school and get out there and earn something.
That kind of pressure is the hardest to resist because it's moral and money driven. I have met a lot of extremely intelligent lorry drivers and (dare I say) barmen. If only they had benefited from a decent education.
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If you are poor the chances are you live in an area with mostly crap schools. And that can include crap primary schools too. If your parents have some dosh, they can move to a catchment for a better school or even send you privately.
My parents rented a house till I was 15 and worked all hours. I got to Grammar School and, like many of my class mates, it moved us out of wage slavery and renting into university, prof qualifications and good prospects.
We still have Grammar schools round here and I hope The Boy gets to one of them!
I was from a poor area in Liverpool, local schools were not good and I went to a Grammar school through parent's hard work. A fantastic opportunity and one that really made the difference.
The school system is shambolic now.
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Why is more likely for a school to be crap because it's in a catchment area that's poor? It's back to the same question, are poor people thicker than average?
or lazier? ~ that's a possibility.
I judge you to be neither Nick and I'd bet you would have done fine in a Comprehensive if they had been around when we were 11.
I think it has much to do with the quality of staff schools in such areas are able to attract.
Money is the same but they want the wheels to still be on their cars at going home time.
There is also a great deal of pressure on kids in poorer circumstances to stop messing around in school and get out there and earn something.
That kind of pressure is the hardest to resist because it's moral and money driven. I have met a lot of extremely intelligent lorry drivers and (dare I say) barmen. If only they had benefited from a decent education.
Agreed ? apart from the intelligent barmen bit ? so does it make sense to lump ?gifted? children in with those that are merely ?serving their time? until they can go out and start earning money?
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My experience of state schools is rather limited. redface:
However, I always thought that the Grammar school/Secondary modern system simply provided the initial 'streaming' of abilities from the Primary schools.
The 'catchment area' nonsense only reared its head in the post-Comprehensive era as parents struggled to keep their offspring away from the 'all animals are equal', stream-free schools, where the slowest set the pace.
Once you escape the dogma and teach children at a rate and depth according to their demonstrated ability, the 'Grammar or not' argument evaporates.
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My experience of state schools is rather limited. redface:
However, I always thought that the Grammar school/Secondary modern system simply provided the initial 'streaming' of abilities from the Primary schools.
The 'catchment area' nonsense only reared its head in the post-Comprehensive era as parents struggled to keep their offspring away from the 'all animals are equal', stream-free schools, where the slowest set the pace.
Once you escape the dogma and teach children at a rate and depth according to their demonstrated ability, the 'Grammar or not' argument evaporates.
Blimey eeek:
Are you feeling yourself Darwin old chap? confused:
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My experience of state schools is rather limited. redface:
However, I always thought that the Grammar school/Secondary modern system simply provided the initial 'streaming' of abilities from the Primary schools.
The 'catchment area' nonsense only reared its head in the post-Comprehensive era as parents struggled to keep their offspring away from the 'all animals are equal', stream-free schools, where the slowest set the pace.
Once you escape the dogma and teach children at a rate and depth according to their demonstrated ability, the 'Grammar or not' argument evaporates.
Blimey eeek:
Are you feeling yourself Darwin old chap? confused:
It has been my habit and practice to make one serious post each month.
This is the May edition.
I see you are only 9 away from the magic -100 Karma?
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My experience of state schools is rather limited. redface:
However, I always thought that the Grammar school/Secondary modern system simply provided the initial 'streaming' of abilities from the Primary schools.
The 'catchment area' nonsense only reared its head in the post-Comprehensive era as parents struggled to keep their offspring away from the 'all animals are equal', stream-free schools, where the slowest set the pace.
Once you escape the dogma and teach children at a rate and depth according to their demonstrated ability, the 'Grammar or not' argument evaporates.
Blimey eeek:
Are you feeling yourself Darwin old chap? confused:
It has been my habit and practice to make one serious post each month.
This is the May edition.
I see you are only 9 away from the magic -100 Karma?
Ah, yes good and a fine post it was too ? I was just a little worried about you. whistle:
Yes, the magic -100 is well within my grasp now ? no lickspittle title for me. happy088
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Are you feeling yourself Darwin old chap? confused:
Aren't all boys? ::)
Personally I don't know either as I was educated abroad. However, it would seem in the current climate that there isn't much incentive to do well educationally. Why would you want to go to University and saddle yourself with a load of debt? When you could doss about on the dole and end up with the same amount of money each month as someone who is earning a wage and yet still paying off debts incured from gaining this wonderous education?
Parents these days in general don't seem to want to encourage their children to do better than they did. Mainly because it would be impossible. Personally I'm not sure if I will encourage my children to go to University. If the climate is the same as it is at the moment I have every intention of encouraging them to learn a trade or skill. They would be far better off as plumbers for instance then they would with an English Literature degree.
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They would be far better off as plumbers for instance then they would with an English Literature degree.
Why not both?
I am sure your would prefer alliterative phrases from a man who knew how to conjugate, messing about with your plumbing?
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Absolutely but then they are still stuck with piles of debt to pay off. I'd prefer them to be settled and saving for their future then paying off their past.
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Aren't all boys?
I set that one up for Darwin - not you! cussing:
Parents these days in general don't seem to want to encourage their children to do better than they did. Mainly because it would be impossible.
I think you?ve hit the nail on the head there ? As things have improved since the war the difference between what parents had and what could be provided for their children has been eroded and is now negligible.
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They would be far better off as plumbers for instance then they would with an English Literature degree.
Why not both?
I am sure your would prefer alliterative phrases from a man who knew how to conjugate, messing about with your plumbing?
I suspect the diagnosis from both would be the same ? that needs jet washing ? but the cost from the university degree?d plumber would be higher.
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I honestly don't know anyone in my group of friends that will be better off. When I compare what my parents had at my age to what I have now it makes me and my Mother want to weep. Unless "Mummy and Daddy" have enough and are prepared to give you a hand then I don't know anyone that has managed to even buy a house on their own.
You think your generation are facing a pension crisis? I dread to think what is going to happen to my generation.
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I honestly don't know anyone in my group of friends that will be better off. When I compare what my parents had at my age to what I have now it makes me and my Mother want to weep. Unless "Mummy and Daddy" have enough and are prepared to give you a hand then I don't know anyone that has managed to even buy a house on their own.
You think your generation are facing a pension crisis? I dread to think what is going to happen to my generation.
At least they won?t be folically challenged. drumroll:
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My experience of state schools is rather limited. redface:
However, I always thought that the Grammar school/Secondary modern system simply provided the initial 'streaming' of abilities from the Primary schools.
The 'catchment area' nonsense only reared its head in the post-Comprehensive era as parents struggled to keep their offspring away from the 'all animals are equal', stream-free schools, where the slowest set the pace.
Once you escape the dogma and teach children at a rate and depth according to their demonstrated ability, the 'Grammar or not' argument evaporates.
Blimey eeek:
Are you feeling yourself Darwin old chap? confused:
Barman ~ at that sort of school one has a younger boy to do one's feeling oneself for one!
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From the looks of those boys they are going to end up needing that special school in Holland! eeek:
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From the looks of those boys they are going to end up needing that special school in Holland! eeek:
They draw women like flies.
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I know. redface:
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From the looks of those boys they are going to end up needing that special school in Holland! eeek:
They draw women like flies.
Perhaps Art school would be better choice then.
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From the looks of those boys they are going to end up needing that special school in Holland! eeek:
They draw women like flies.
Perhaps Art school would be better choice then.
drumroll:
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I heard Cameron on R4 this morning getting savaged over the issue ? basically trying to defend the indefensible given that most of his team went to Grammar/public school.
He seems to want to make an issue of it ? I can only see it bringing him down. Its not important enough to campaign on at this stage and puts him firmly in the Labour camp.
What a tosser. noooo:
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Personally I'll vote for whichever/whoever stands up and says "Sorry I f*cked that up so I've changed my mind and am prepared to admit it" Honesty is what I'm looking for. Never find it of course. noooo:
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Personally I'll vote for whichever/whoever stands up and says "Sorry I f*cked that up so I've changed my mind and am prepared to admit it" Honesty is what I'm looking for. Never find it of course. noooo:
I certainly wouldn?t hold your breath while waiting!
Perhaps Cameron has a plan to bring his leadership to the edge of a precipice and then say ?one has fucked-up??
Nah? noooo: